Clarification - A Rant
I wish to make a distinction that I have from time to time made. I believe our fight is with 'radical' Muslims. Those who support, finance, give aid and comfort to and carry out terrorist acts in the name of Islam and/or Jihad. I do not, REPEAT do not buy into the notion that if all Muslims were to read the Koran and the Hadiths literally that they too would be terrorists. If I have failed to make that clear, I apologize. I apologize too because I have been guilty of the piling on. Recently I've been convicted otherwise.
It's too easy to condemn all Muslims for the acts of a few...but I understand that tendency. Still, how many exceptions would you make before realizing that the tendency would be wrong...? 20? 40? 500? 1000?
1?
This logic discounts the grace of God. Suppose I say “well, that's ridiculous that any Muslim who takes the Koran literally will become a terrorist”. Then the offending passage will be displayed and the point will be made. BUT, it only shows that the Koran may have passages that could be interpreted that way. It doesn't prove in any way that all Muslims will become terrorists. The verses on kitna, hudna and taqiyya will be the next bromide trotted out, the verses on deceit being an organic part of the Koran and Islam....”You see? You can't trust those Muslims because lying to you is okay if you're an infidel”. So even if a Muslim were to say...”I reject terrorism or the offending Koranic verses”, the bromide will be thrown at your feet.
Why are some of my fellow Christians and conservatives unwilling to recognize the sacrifice of the Iraqi people? , most of whom are Muslims? Do you want to see, feel and taste the sacrifice of the Iraqi people? Check out Iraq the Model. Read the archives. See their desire for democracy to take hold, their affection for
They get upset if a securalist were to deny that our founding documents contained references to Judeo/Christian ethics, values, laws etc
AND then want to
deny the Iraqi's the same latitude in their own Constitution.
Let's follow this logic to other conclusions:
Every Christian is a pro lifer therefore they are bound to blow up abortion clinics.
If the logic is that any Muslim who reads the Koran literally will become a terrorist then any Jew/Christian who takes the Exodus verse literally will begin executing homosexuals.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Exodus 22:21
How can we condemn all Muslims and won’t condemn ourselves? If it’s unrealistic to condemn ourselves due to years of Christians NOT killing gays..can’t we say that for MOST years, Muslims didn’t kill US?
Doesn't this logic mean every German who reads Mein Kampf is a potential Nazi.
Every New Orleans ex-patriate is a potential criminal.
Every Mormon who reads the Book of Mormon and the church doctrines might become bigamists.
I can't and won't buy into it. I won't be agitated into hating a certain group because of the actions of a few.
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Well, I think you know I feel this way, too, Elbro.
I have a question; have all the muslims who've rather famously written against islamists given up their faith entirely? I'm not sure about that..anybody know? That would support your theory, too, I think, if they have not...if they only warn against the terrorists among them?
I believe there are Catholics who've given up on their church but attend Protestant churches now. Matter of fact, I know that for a fact because I know several who tired of the 'business of the Catholic church' yet yearn for the Scripture of the Lutheran or Presbyterian or nondenominational churches, for example. That's not a slam on Catholics, believe me. Not from me, anyway..just an observation and one I think might help forward your argument? perhaps it's better said that there are Christians who've left more fundamentalist churches to find what they feel's a softer, more forgiving church. (I happen personally to find that utter rubbish, but I'm just sayin'..) They remain Christians, but.......There are Jews who leave the Orthodox church of their folks for the Reform.
There are radical muslims here in the CAIR group, etc...there are terrorists in Iraq; we all know that. On the other side of the coin there are muslims who are NOT in CAIR and say it doesn't speak for them. There were hundreds of muslims at a conference in Florida last Spring, I believe, who spoke against the islamists but CAIR squelched that quickly; they had officials downplaying, saying "These aren't REAL MUSLIMS" I believe Glenn Beck was the only host down there interviewing both sides; I heard ZILCH about it in any other media and I'm quite sure CAIR had a hand in that media cover-up. You'd think they'd want the world to hear about the moderate muslims, no? I'm eager to hear the discussion here on this...thanks.
On the other hand; it takes only one muslim to REALLY 'ruin your day'.. I think we ALL know that. And, we don't see millions of muslims marching against terrorism.
Still....you make important points. (sorry I wrote a post-long comment)
Comment by Z— 2008/07/05 @ 08:22 AM — (Reply)
I understand your point of view. I believe
what I have always said is NOT that I think all muslims are terrorists or
potential terrorists, but that, if the radicals gain a foothold, the rest
would go along. Even now, when the terrorists in Europe commit a deadly act,
in the muslim communities, the silence is deafening. They go along.
I don't believe they would resist shariia law. I don't believe they would
speak out for America over the radical actions of the few. Not in
significant enough numbers, if they did at all. That's why I'm wary and
don't trust them. Abdullah probably isn't a terrorist, but his dreams for
America are very clear. Remember? He said he "want's a Mosque on every
street corner". An exaggeration to be sure, but we all know what he means.
It's not enough to be physically safe, if we accept any concept of Shariia
law in the West. Even if ordinary muslims would not really want that either,
I believe they would not resist it. I simply cannot trust them. If America,
for instance, goes the way of Europe, we will lose our country, ultimately.
It would simply be a matter of time. If the enemy believes they can win
simply by holding the world hostage with threats of violence, if they don't
get their way, they will do that counting on the appeasement and cowardly
compliance from Western governments. The muslims who live in those
countries, including ours, will go along. What they're told in their Mosques
every week, is much more powerful for them, than what our President says.
I'm convinced of that.
These are an aggressive, demanding people, Z. Since 9-11 they have been
emboldened and much more in evidence here. They use our courts to have
exceptions made for them that do not coincide with the American way of life,
or with what we expect for ourselves. If, because of muslims, America adopts
laws which are un-American, we have lost.
As to Iraq, I never expected for a moment that they would be a democracy or
a Republic like ours, and frankly, I don't care. I care that we're
successful there, and of course I would hate to see it be a bloodbath.
But, if they keep it there, whatever they incorporate into their
constitution, I coudn't care less. I hope as we all do, that they end up in
Iraq with more freedom than before, and that our influence will aid in that.
My greatest hope is that, that entire region becomes more in line with a
more recent century, than the 7th. That they are dragged kicking and
screaming towards the 21st century. But, if they can exist somewhat
peaceably with the West, and can take care of their own, it's fine with me.
But, trust? Nope!
Pris
Comment by Pris— 2008/07/05 @ 07:18 PM — (Reply)
Elbro, sorry I seem to have entered my post twice. This is my first time posting on your blog and am not quite sure where I went wrong. I'm sure you'll agree one is quite enough.
Pris
Comment by Pris— 2008/07/05 @ 07:25 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Brooke— 2008/07/05 @ 11:54 AM — (Reply)
BG
Comment by Barry G.— 2008/07/05 @ 06:42 PM — (Reply)
Barry, you make a good point, there aren't many...except can they? It's beginning to feel like even Americans don't have the guts to stand up and fight. Could muslims? I know one ex muslim personally who can't even give the hosts of his lectures his address for the check for his services...he lives in fear every day.
Comment by Z— 2008/07/05 @ 07:09 PM — (Reply)
Comment by riffran— 2008/07/05 @ 07:14 PM — (Reply)
There are however Muslim groups who oppose Sharia Law in this country.
Muslism Against Sharia
Muslims for America
Free Muslims
all of these groups and more renounce terrorism
the problem is I believe they don't get the press...it doesn't sell papers
I for one read many blogs that deal strictly or post many stories about Islamic terrorism or tend to focus on the extremes...so the sources for cultivating my views tend to be myopic
So I believe the 'paucity' of those Muslims who oppose Sharia Law in this country and renounce terrorism can be in part attributed to a bad marketing department
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/06 @ 05:40 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/06 @ 05:41 AM — (Reply)
when I mentioned there were Iraqi's who were supportive of us and democracy the other fellow said that was a red herring....
I knew better...and it pissed me off to be frank. Had he met any Iraqi's? Had he ever visited blogs like Iraq the Model? Was he aware of the sacrifices the Iraqi's themselves are making? He described himself as a conservative and also seemed to think even less of the Iraqi Constitution.
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/06 @ 06:04 AM — (Reply)
Elm, I gotta feelin' there ain't too many of those peaceful muslims around. Check this book out if you get the chance.
http://www.amazon.com/Unveiling-Islam-Insiders-Muslim-Beliefs/dp/0825424003
Comment by EDGE— 2008/07/06 @ 02:37 PM — (Reply)
So I believe the 'paucity' of those Muslims who oppose Sharia Law in this country and renounce terrorism can be in part attributed to a bad marketing department.
Separation of church and state elbro. I doubt you could justify using the state to proselytize AGAINST a specific religion except to convert them to "secularizism" (which is what they currently do via-private groups against Christians). But perhaps like the SCLC and ACLU, a Christian "legal" group should begin to "pick away" at the privledges Islamic schools and mosques are granted OVER and above those lent Christian ones.
Comment by FJ— 2008/07/07 @ 06:50 AM — (Reply)
Fj...there are groups doing that, but not enough and not loud enough for my taste. Maybe the media won't publish that information, but i think it would make a big dent in the psyche of the American public.."wait, the muslims get THAT,but Christians (or Jews) don't?" It might even make a dent in Secularists..............naaaa
Comment by z— 2008/07/07 @ 07:30 AM — (Reply)
At the risk of sounding boring, I agree with you completely. It scares me to hear Christians being so un-graceful to peaceful Muslims. I do not think that it's a religion of "peace", but we can't generalize.
I'd never kill an abortion dr.
Thanks for speaking your mind, ElBro.
As conservatives and Christians, we need to disagree more. It's healthy and good.
Comment by Pinky— 2008/07/08 @ 07:39 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/08 @ 09:16 AM — (Reply)
The problem isn't Muslims, it's Islam itself. The Koran is a gorefest of assassination, beheadings, slavery and war for profit. 164 verses of violent jihad anyone? Mohammad, the only prophet of Islam, carried out numerous atrocities in the name of Allah. Conversely, Jesus never harmed anyone, and therefore making it impossible to claim the Gospel as religious justification. Muslims can and do use Islamic text every time they commit an act of terror, honorcide, stoning or beheading. Mullahs praise and encourage these acts. There is no Islamic equivelant of "love thy enemy" or "he without sin cast the first stone".
Every nation that has a significant Muslim population is an udder mess, lagging the rest of the world by centuries in human rights. I do there are a lot of good groups and Muslims out there who would like to see reform, but they can only do so while sheltered in a Western nation. They would be executed in their homelands.
Both Judaism and Christianity have had to undergo major reformations to attain their current values. But even the the Dark Ages the cruelty committed under the name of God was due to a lack of knowledge of scripture, not because of it. Before the printing press, parishioners relied wholly on the word of the local priest. Making corruption inevitable. But once the word became open to all, the church was forced to abide by it's own rules.
But Islam, even after the advent of a media that covers every part of the globe, still can't bring itself to reform. That doesn't mean I think it's impossible, if fact, we're duty bound to help anyone who will accepts us on peaceful and equitable terms. Today's reformers deserve a lot of credit. They are the real "tiny minority of extremists", and are probably under greater threat than your average kuffar.
Comment by — 2008/07/08 @ 02:25 PM — (Reply)
I think you made a very important distinction. It is Islam and anyone who seeks to reform it...we should support those who wish to do so
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/08 @ 03:03 PM — (Reply)
Yes, that was me.
Comment by kevin— 2008/07/09 @ 06:47 AM — (Reply)
I think Kevin's right, BIG TIME. And we all have to hope that some of the more heinous crimes by muslim on muslim in this country and elsewhere (especially against women) start to turn their minds toward modernity and reform.
I know what I"m going to say next isn't going to be apprciated much here right now, but my mind wandered to our culture today where all we hear about is kids having sex at twelve and teachers doing it with kids, and 15 yr olds having kids, etc.....and then you ask yourself. Man, isn't there a happy medium to strive for? And isn't this American culture thing turning people more OFF Modernity than ON, if you're a caring parent!?
I'm not advocating killing your child for promiscuity (TRUST ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!) but are we helping muslims come around? Not sure.
Comment by Z— 2008/07/09 @ 09:19 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/09 @ 10:11 AM — (Reply)
Exactly right, Elbro. they're probably right on that count.
What can we do about this, though? ANYTHING? I don't think so. I guess the fact we don't KILL for promiscuity is in our favor! !!!
Comment by Z— 2008/07/09 @ 05:39 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Ed— 2008/07/10 @ 12:57 AM — (Reply)
and I wonder the same? Do we have the will to fight the radical Islamists?
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/10 @ 06:15 AM — (Reply)
Comment by aza spade— 2008/07/10 @ 01:10 PM — (Reply)
Comment by aza spade— 2008/07/10 @ 05:32 AM — (Reply)
TALIBAN BROTHERS DECAPITATE AMERIKKAN DOGS! A multi-pronged militant assault on a small, remote U.S. base close to the Pakistan border killed nine American soldiers and wounded 15 Sunday in the deadliest attack on U.S. forces in Afghanistan in three years, officials said.
The attack on the American troops began around 4:30 a.m. and lasted throughout the day. Militants fired machine guns, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars from homes and a mosque in the village of Wanat in the mountainous northeastern province of Kunar, NATO’s International Security Assistance Force said in a statement.
U.S. officials say militant attacks in Afghanistan are becoming more complex, intense and better coordinated than a year ago. Monthly death tolls of U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan surpassed U.S. military deaths in Iraq in May and June. And last Monday, a suicide bomber attacked the Indian Embassy in Kabul, killing 58 people in the deadliest attack in the Afghan capital since 2001.
U.S. officials are considering drawing down additional forces from Iraq in coming months, in part because of the need for additional U.S. troops in Afghanistan. U.S. officials have said they need at least three more brigades in Afghanistan — or more than 10,000 troops.
Comment by Lyrical Terrorist— 2008/07/13 @ 01:20 PM — (Reply)
Comment by jim— 2008/07/13 @ 02:58 PM — (Reply)
U.S. coalition and Afghan soldiers killed 40 militants elsewhere in the south.
More than 2,300 people — mostly militants — have died in insurgency-related violence this year, according to an Associated Press tally of official figures. Attacks in eastern Afghanistan are up 40 percent this year compared with last year.
you don't fool me or anyone else....loser
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/13 @ 01:28 PM — (Reply)
Host Name cpe-65-189-194-145.neo.res.rr.com
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Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/13 @ 01:31 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Ed— 2008/07/13 @ 01:46 PM — (Reply)
Comment by riffran— 2008/07/13 @ 02:32 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Ed— 2008/07/13 @ 04:25 PM — (Reply)
JOIN AL-QAEDA: PRE-ENLISTMENT BONUS! Al Qaida has designed techniques that eliminated direct recruitment to the Islamic insurgency network. A U.S. Senate report said Al Qaida has established websites that indoctrinated visitors to conduct attacks on the United States and other Western countries. The report said the hi-tech websites recruit and train viewers in Islamic holy war without any direct contact by Al Qaida. "Its objective is to gain wide Muslim support, empathy, financing, and future recruits," the report by the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. "To help Al Qaida target U.S. citizens, several radical websites in the United States have re-packaged Al Qaida statements with American vernacular and commentary intending to sway U.S. Muslims." In testimony to the committee on July 9, Maajid Nawaz, a former member of a pro-Al Qaida group in Britain, listed several types of Islamists. A former member of Hizb ut-Tahrir, Nawaz cited a political activist assigned to infiltrate democracies, and the revolutionary, who aims to stage a violent overthrow or military coup.
Comment by Car Bomb— 2008/07/14 @ 04:39 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/14 @ 05:30 AM — (Reply)
Comment by jim— 2008/07/14 @ 08:33 AM — (Reply)
The problem is, one 'lyrical terrorist' cancels out thousands of well meaning Muslims.
Comment by kevin— 2008/07/14 @ 06:33 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/14 @ 06:43 AM — (Reply)
It does make Christians look bad, or at least fundamentalist Christians. But the main difference is we don't glorify our terrorists. There are no streets named after Abortion Clinic Bombers, but that is exactly what you'll find in the Muslim world. Christian martyrs are those who have died at the hands of others for the sake of their faith. Muslim martyrs are those who murder on behalf of their faith, that's because the Gospel doesn't call for the deaths of non-believers to be carried out by it's followers the way the Koran does. During this year's Haj, hundreds of thousands of pious Muslims gathered in the holiest place at the holiest time of their faith and chanted 'Death to America, Death to Israel!'.
This is the Christian equivalent of the Pope leading a chant of 'Death to Saudi Arabia!' on Easter.
Comment by kevin— 2008/07/16 @ 10:10 AM — (Reply)
ISLAMIC RADICALS RECRUIT OVER THE INTERNET: That's the latest TV report about me, broadcast on the BBC. (They love me in the UK). Yes, that's FBI fink Glen Janvey introducing me. And to think it all started back on a small bloghost nobody ever heard of; thanks Bloghiers!
Comment by AK-47— 2008/07/14 @ 11:44 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Ed— 2008/07/14 @ 02:04 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/14 @ 12:17 PM — (Reply)
I'm not so sure.
My own little sister, a convert to Islam herself, tried to sell me on the whole "Islam is a religion of peace" bullshit.
She taught herself Arabic. Then she moved to the Middle East.
All of a sudden, jihadi videos started being embedded on her MySpace page.
Maybe not all Muslims are terrorists or terrorist supporters.
But practicing and devout Muslims seem to be.
Comment by beamish— 2008/07/14 @ 01:58 PM — (Reply)
I'm just suggesting that if one condemns all for the action of a few to be consistent one would have to apply it to any group
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/16 @ 10:16 AM — (Reply)
TALIBAN BROTHERS EVE OF VICTORY
Comment by lyrical Terrorist— 2008/07/30 @ 01:19 PM — (Reply)
the Taliban have launched a surge of their own. By focusing on Kabul, “we can create panic and undermine the last vestiges of support for the regime,” says a senior Taliban intelligence operative in Pakistan, declining to be named for security reasons. Mullah Bari Khan, a Taliban commander in Ghazni province, tells NEWSWEEK the group is pushing its agents and fighting men into Kabul from surrounding provinces—and the provincial governor, Osman Osmani, says he’s afraid that insurgents from his area may be moving in that direction. Khan claims Taliban strategists have divided Kabul into 15 zones. Each one is supposedly to get its own operatives, with some bringing their families along to serve as cover while they work to recruit local support and prepare for new attacks.
The Taliban’s psy-war offensive has been deadly and effective so far. In January the group attacked the heavily guarded Serena Hotel, a favorite of high-profile foreign visitors, killing seven. In April, Taliban snipers opened fire on a military parade, sending President Hamid Karzai scrambling for cover and killing one member of Parliament. And in July a suicide bomber in a new 4-by-4 packed with explosives rammed the Indian Embassy, directly across the street from the Afghan Interior Ministry, killing two Indian diplomats and some 40 other people. Qari Talha, one of the Taliban’s chief agents in Kabul, boasts that the Indian Embassy blast was a great success, but says he had no advance knowledge of it. Afghan intelligence and foreign diplomats strongly believe the three attacks were planned and coordinated by insurgent commanders in Pakistan. Each cell operates independently of the others, Talha tells NEWSWEEK. He says the Taliban will continue to target senior government officials, embassies and hotels and restaurants frequented by foreigners.
A sense of life under siege is spreading across the city.
Comment by Car Bomb— 2008/07/30 @ 01:20 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/30 @ 01:24 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/30 @ 01:27 PM — (Reply)
Comment by jim— 2008/07/30 @ 01:41 PM — (Reply)
Canton Ohio United States
cpe-65-189-194-145.neo.res.rr.com (65.189.194.145) [Label IP Address]
It won't be long pino, the MIB will find you.
BG
Comment by Barry G.— 2008/07/30 @ 02:32 PM — (Reply)
With cunts like you for enemies, Fuckwalter, I have no worries.
Comment by Lyrical Terrorist— 2008/07/31 @ 04:34 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/07/31 @ 05:31 AM — (Reply)
This fall's articles regarding pino in the Canton newspaper promise to be as "interesting" as last year.
Comment by Barry G.— 2008/07/31 @ 01:46 PM — (Reply)
Arkansas, Mountain View, United States, 0 returning visit
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