That's an easy one, Elmer. Didn't you ever watch Excalibur?
Merlin says : "Alright then, truth, thats it, yes, it must be truth, above all, when a man lies he murders part of the world."
I don't know. I guess you'd have to ask God about that one - but I hope you don't think that lessens the importance of truth! God surely would never lie.
Did she deceive the Germans about the Jews her family was hiding?
I guess there's the intent behind the lie. I don't think anyone would fault someone for lying about something like that - and I don't think those kinds of "lies" make you any less truthful.
And the right is supposed to be the moral absolutists?
Comment by
Brooke— 2008/01/14 @ 05:34 AM
— (Reply)
I think we measure others by comparing them to ourselves. And that the better we know ourselves (gnothi seauton), the better we think we can "know" and measure others. But ultimately, all such knowledge is relative and likely to be incorrect, for only a god, who "knows all" can cast an accurate scale and weights with which perform the measure.
Nietzsche (Gay Science) believed that the ultimate challenge of the modern age was to establish new tables of values from which to perform our "human" measures...
"Let us therefore limit ourselves to the purification of our opinions and valuations and to the creation of our own new tables of values:—and let us stop brooding about the "moral value of our actions"! Yes, my friends, regarding all the moral chatter of some about others it is time to feel nauseous! Sitting in moral judgment should offend our taste! Let us leave such chatter and such bad taste to those who have nothing else to do but drag the past a few steps further through time and who never live in the present,—which is to say the many, the great majority! We, however, want to become who we are,—the new, unique, incomparable ones, who give themselves their own laws, who create themselves! And to that end we must become the best learners and discoverers of everything that is lawful and necessary in the world: we must become physicists in order to be able to be creators in this sense,—while hitherto all valuations and ideals have been based on ignorance of physics or were constructed so as to contradict it. Therefore: long live physics! And even more so that which compels us to turn to physics,—our honesty!"
...but such a radical polemically individualistic approach is not very ratio-nal. For no man is an island.
Christians typically measure men by the example of a single man, Christ. Mohammedans by the example of a single man, Mohammed. Objectivists (followers of Ayn Rand) measure man and society by the liberty and freedom of that society's "highest" representative men. Rawlsians (A Theory of Justice) make an "opposite" valuation. They measure the worth of a society by the liberty and health of that society's "lowest" representative man. And finally Platonists measure man and society by the health and liberty of a society's "mean" man.
Which is the best approach? I prefer the most ratio-nal one. ;-)
Whereas I believe Plato's approach to be the most "fair", I secretly wish that every man would choose to measure himself against some "common" highest representative man or group of men. That way, each man would constantly be striving to transform himself into the highest/best man he can possibly be... his Freudian ego-ideal.
Which is one of the reasons why I find modern society so distressing, as those who propose to establish "new tables of values" are constantly seeking to unseat those who established and embodied the old values, finding fault and trashing the reputations of excellent "representative men" in the process (sounding idols). This is the "common man's" war against the hoi agathoi, sometimes borne of amour propre (artifical self esteem) and not amour de soi (deserved self-worth), sometimes not.
Nope. I think "the feeling" comes "naturally" and is common to "all men". Our sense of "justice".
But a "temperate" man is much more sensitive to that feeling than the intemperate one. Nothing to Excess! The intemperate man's "senses" tend to be dulled by excesses of both the mind and flesh.
...which is not to discount the energy and strength of action and will of the courageous man. One must always be sure to maintain the proper balance between temperance and courage. ;-)
I find maintaining the proper ratio between justice and wisdom to be the most challenging for most people. Few understand that it requires a "trade"... for as Isaiah Berlin has said, "Some of the great goods cannot live together... We are doomed
to choose, and every choice may entail an irreparable loss."
The intemperate man's "senses" tend to be dulled by excesses of both the mind and flesh.
For the things in the world--the cravings of the earthly nature, the cravings of the eyes, the show and pride of life--they all come, not from the Father, but from the world. I John 2:16
493 (1885)
"Truth is the kind of error without which a certain species of life could not live. The value for life is ultimately decisive.
534 (1887-1888)
The criterion of truth resides in the enhancement of the feeling of power."
and Jowett says in his intro to the translation of Plato's "Philebus"
"In like manner, the table of goods does not distinguish between the two heads of measure and symmetry...
There are three criteria of goodness--beauty, symmetry, truth. These are clearly more akin to reason than to pleasure, and will enable us to fix the places of both of them in the scale of good. First in the scale is measure; the second place is assigned to symmetry; the third, to reason and wisdom; the fourth, to knowledge and true opinion; the fifth, to pure pleasures; and here the Muse says 'Enough.'"
There. That's enough to confuse anyone for at least five mintues...or a lifetime.
Measure iniquity by the heart, whether a man's purse be full or empty, partly full or partly empty. If the man is a descent man, whether well off or not well off, stand by him; if he is not a decent man stand against him, whether he be rich or poor. -- Theodore Roosevelt
WOW .. I had heard of this too !! many years ago, West Virina was well noted for the manditory sterilization of the "FEEBLE MINDED".... Feeble minded can be documented. many have it today !!! I see it from time to time in those who come and work a while in harvest times. Mostly someone who takes charge of the others as a spokeman and advocate of the welfare of those in thier circle will tend to protect those who dont really want to talk. just work I say ... just do what your spokesman tells you to do and everything works fine ....everyones happy ...
I've never run across eugenics before heard of Roosevelt's support for them. I am aware of other unsavory ideas of Roosevelts such as this one: "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't inquire too closely into the case of the tenth. The most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian." - Theodore Roosevelt
All the warmongers are traitors. WWII started on a lie. Gulf of Tonkin? Never happened = Vietnam a lie.
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=gulf+of+tonkin+lie&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
Iraq has no WMD.... all lies meant to scare you into letting the fat stuffed suits make billions of your kids dying. WAKE UP!
I know you're a good guy, Elmer. One day your gonna realize your honorable intentions were misguided - and that its all just been an illusion. And on that day you'll be like Paul - and start fighting for the good guys.
Hello everyone. That was beautiful and so true. I haven't been hiding, I just moved. I'm now over at Rosemary's Thoughts. (Still with blogspot.) Happy New Year!
Comment by
Rosemary— 2008/01/16 @ 01:35 AM
— (Reply)
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About: The true hero is not one that stands up for glory, or recognition. They are not the ones who seek fame or fortune. They are not the ones that take the easy road or simple task. The true hero is the one that would stand up and say "This job must be done", and then leads the way.
Merlin says : "Alright then, truth, thats it, yes, it must be truth, above all, when a man lies he murders part of the world."
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/13 @ 04:24 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/13 @ 04:28 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/13 @ 04:39 PM — (Reply)
I believe truth is an important virtue.
I agree God would not lie...but...if you measure a man by him speaking the truth then what do you think of Rahab? and the nursemaids?
How about Corrie Ten Boom? Did she deceive the Germans about the Jews her family was hiding?
Would you fault her for that?
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/13 @ 05:29 PM — (Reply)
I guess there's the intent behind the lie. I don't think anyone would fault someone for lying about something like that - and I don't think those kinds of "lies" make you any less truthful.
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/14 @ 08:34 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 12:45 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/15 @ 06:13 AM — (Reply)
you call Bush a liar and a killer because you believe he lied
yet you're willing to let others (Pallywood) slide with an obvious lie and people dying
you're definitely an enigma Dugg
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/15 @ 06:52 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/13 @ 04:40 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Brooke— 2008/01/14 @ 05:34 AM — (Reply)
I think we measure others by comparing them to ourselves. And that the better we know ourselves (gnothi seauton), the better we think we can "know" and measure others. But ultimately, all such knowledge is relative and likely to be incorrect, for only a god, who "knows all" can cast an accurate scale and weights with which perform the measure.
Nietzsche (Gay Science) believed that the ultimate challenge of the modern age was to establish new tables of values from which to perform our "human" measures...
"Let us therefore limit ourselves to the purification of our opinions and valuations and to the creation of our own new tables of values:—and let us stop brooding about the "moral value of our actions"! Yes, my friends, regarding all the moral chatter of some about others it is time to feel nauseous! Sitting in moral judgment should offend our taste! Let us leave such chatter and such bad taste to those who have nothing else to do but drag the past a few steps further through time and who never live in the present,—which is to say the many, the great majority! We, however, want to become who we are,—the new, unique, incomparable ones, who give themselves their own laws, who create themselves! And to that end we must become the best learners and discoverers of everything that is lawful and necessary in the world: we must become physicists in order to be able to be creators in this sense,—while hitherto all valuations and ideals have been based on ignorance of physics or were constructed so as to contradict it. Therefore: long live physics! And even more so that which compels us to turn to physics,—our honesty!"
...but such a radical polemically individualistic approach is not very ratio-nal. For no man is an island.
Christians typically measure men by the example of a single man, Christ. Mohammedans by the example of a single man, Mohammed. Objectivists (followers of Ayn Rand) measure man and society by the liberty and freedom of that society's "highest" representative men. Rawlsians (A Theory of Justice) make an "opposite" valuation. They measure the worth of a society by the liberty and health of that society's "lowest" representative man. And finally Platonists measure man and society by the health and liberty of a society's "mean" man.
Which is the best approach? I prefer the most ratio-nal one. ;-)
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 05:51 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 06:12 AM — (Reply)
Whereas I believe Plato's approach to be the most "fair", I secretly wish that every man would choose to measure himself against some "common" highest representative man or group of men. That way, each man would constantly be striving to transform himself into the highest/best man he can possibly be... his Freudian ego-ideal.
Which is one of the reasons why I find modern society so distressing, as those who propose to establish "new tables of values" are constantly seeking to unseat those who established and embodied the old values, finding fault and trashing the reputations of excellent "representative men" in the process (sounding idols). This is the "common man's" war against the hoi agathoi, sometimes borne of amour propre (artifical self esteem) and not amour de soi (deserved self-worth), sometimes not.
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 06:21 AM — (Reply)
Would you then also have to be a mathmetician?
Nope. I think "the feeling" comes "naturally" and is common to "all men". Our sense of "justice".
But a "temperate" man is much more sensitive to that feeling than the intemperate one. Nothing to Excess! The intemperate man's "senses" tend to be dulled by excesses of both the mind and flesh.
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 06:26 AM — (Reply)
...which is not to discount the energy and strength of action and will of the courageous man. One must always be sure to maintain the proper balance between temperance and courage. ;-)
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 06:30 AM — (Reply)
Did you catch all the "virtues" I just placed upon the scales? ;-)
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 06:32 AM — (Reply)
I find maintaining the proper ratio between justice and wisdom to be the most challenging for most people. Few understand that it requires a "trade"... for as Isaiah Berlin has said, "Some of the great goods cannot live together... We are doomed
to choose, and every choice may entail an irreparable loss."
Such is the "tragic" nature of choice.
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 06:37 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 07:12 AM — (Reply)
For the things in the world--the cravings of the earthly nature, the cravings of the eyes, the show and pride of life--they all come, not from the Father, but from the world. I John 2:16
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 06:38 AM — (Reply)
As for truth, Nietzsche (Will to Power) says...
493 (1885)
"Truth is the kind of error without which a certain species of life could not live. The value for life is ultimately decisive.
534 (1887-1888)
The criterion of truth resides in the enhancement of the feeling of power."
and Jowett says in his intro to the translation of Plato's "Philebus"
"In like manner, the table of goods does not distinguish between the two heads of measure and symmetry...
There are three criteria of goodness--beauty, symmetry, truth. These are clearly more akin to reason than to pleasure, and will enable us to fix the places of both of them in the scale of good. First in the scale is measure; the second place is assigned to symmetry; the third, to reason and wisdom; the fourth, to knowledge and true opinion; the fifth, to pure pleasures; and here the Muse says 'Enough.'"
There. That's enough to confuse anyone for at least five mintues...or a lifetime.
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 06:50 AM — (Reply)
Beauty lies in the "forms", symmetry in the scale and truth gets placed onto the pan.
Anchors aweigh my friend... but try not to drift onto a sandbar.
Happy weighing. ;-)
Comment by Famer John— 2008/01/14 @ 06:56 AM — (Reply)
James 1:5
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 07:04 AM — (Reply)
Ecclesiastes 3
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 a time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 06:57 AM — (Reply)
I'm sure I'm missing a few but I am thinking about it. Thanks for your input Farmer.
.....there is nothing new under the sun...Ecclesiastes 1:9
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 07:00 AM — (Reply)
Ecclesiastes 3
No polemical "absolutes" can exist (at least...not for long)in this universe...
Comment by Farmer John— 2008/01/14 @ 07:00 AM — (Reply)
Measure iniquity by the heart, whether a man's purse be full or empty, partly full or partly empty. If the man is a descent man, whether well off or not well off, stand by him; if he is not a decent man stand against him, whether he be rich or poor. -- Theodore Roosevelt
Comment by The Frank Family— 2008/01/14 @ 12:32 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 12:49 PM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/14 @ 12:51 PM — (Reply)
Comment by aza spade— 2008/01/15 @ 01:49 PM — (Reply)
I've never run across eugenics before heard of Roosevelt's support for them. I am aware of other unsavory ideas of Roosevelts such as this one: "I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn't inquire too closely into the case of the tenth. The most vicious cowboy has more moral principle than the average Indian." - Theodore Roosevelt
Comment by The Frank Family— 2008/01/14 @ 01:35 PM — (Reply)
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/15 @ 06:20 AM — (Reply)
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=gulf+of+tonkin+lie&fr=yfp-t-501&toggle=1&cop=mss&ei=UTF-8
Iraq has no WMD.... all lies meant to scare you into letting the fat stuffed suits make billions of your kids dying. WAKE UP!
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/15 @ 06:24 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/15 @ 06:50 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Dugg— 2008/01/15 @ 08:57 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/15 @ 09:07 AM — (Reply)
Comment by Elmers Brother— 2008/01/15 @ 04:38 AM — (Reply)
Hello everyone. That was beautiful and so true. I haven't been hiding, I just moved. I'm now over at Rosemary's Thoughts. (Still with blogspot.) Happy New Year!
Comment by Rosemary— 2008/01/16 @ 01:35 AM — (Reply)