Summing it up
My friend Gravelrash summed up my feelings very well when he made a comment in answer to eman at Democracy Frontline.
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hi ppl i hope you are feeling good when you see muslims offended by disrespecting their prophet….!!!!!!!! if losing the sence of respect is the meaning of freedome in your countries then i dont think that we want to learn from you the profesional way of being journalists i prefare as muslim to see the objective and postive way of expressing and building a healthy and warm rolations with the west not offensive ways and here i was very astonished to see that the western world still mixing between real Islam and terourism
despite every thing im very sorry about what happened in some of the embassies in Syeria and Libanon.
open your minds dont be biasedComment by eman — February 6, 2006 @ 1:31 am
Eman:-
Welcome. If you truly understand the subtleties and nuances of the free exchange of ideas, then you will continue to have a voice here and be heard. But this site will not be open to you to propagandise.
Please understand, we am NOT ignorant of Islam or the Koran, and so my comments come from a position of some considerable knowledge. I am also well-versed in the history and achievements of the combined Judeo-Christian world. (I lived in S.E.Asia for 10 years, amongst Muslims, so I am not myopic, either.)
That is the “background” of my reply to you, and sets the tone. The written word cannot communicate emotion or attitude well, so I feel I must state:
I really DO want to have a dialogue with you. I do not intend to resort to propaganda, rhetoric… or insult. Will you offer the same?
You asked if “we” were “feeling good when you see muslims offended by disrespecting their prophet….!!!!!!!!”
In light of the many, many thousands - yes, thousands - of “insults” to my culture, my beliefs, my nations sovereignty, my freedoms, which have resulted in mayhem and death, then yes, there is some satisfaction in watching your less educated “brothers” demonstrate their intolerance, ignorance and rabid hate. They prove our point for us, which must cause moderates like you to question THEM, surely?
I have seen the cartoons. First, they are very amatuerish and not very good. Secondly, to a western eye well used to the art of the cartoonist, they show no disrespect to anyone, but reflect the tradition of satire, which springs from free speech, something NOT available in most Islamic nations.
The cartoonist is limited. They have ONE drawing to summarise everything they wish to say, and showing Mohamed with a bomb in the turban….. is an analogy. Do you not understand that?
Who cannot draw some connection between Mohamed and modern Muslims?
Who cannot draw some connection between modern Muslims and terrorism?
I know YOU are not a terrorist (I hope) but how many terrorists are Muslim? The latest count of atrocities commited in the name of Islam is around the 4,500 mark, since 9/11. Remember, we in the West are aware of EACH and EVERY ONE of those murders. WE know.
Moderate Muslims claim Islam has been misconstrued by those terrorists, but they are Muslims and they DO COMMIT murder in Mohameds name, don’t they?
A drawing, poor as it is, which attempts to make the connection, is therefore not provocative, but truthful.
I would point out to you MY critique of those cartoons. I didn’t like them because they stated the obvious.
It is now fairly well established fact that an Imam from Denmark used fabricated and unpublished cartoons to incite this rage in Syria and Lebanon.
Do you understand that?? The cartoons used to incite these CRIMES were never published in Denmark. In fact, the only people who seem to have seen them are Muslim clerics.
Do you begin to see why we do not trust that these demonstrations are anything other than politically motivated riots, having little to do with an “insult” to your prophet and a whole lot more to do with POWER??
But this is all a bit off-track, really. The issue is a sense of proportion. Do you not see how these outrageously over-the-top reactions to some simple, rudimentary drawings makes Islam look, in the eyes of the West. You CLAIM to be a religion of peace, with peaceful intent, but we NEVER see this. What we see is burning buildings, beheaded hostages, exploding bodies.
Is this going to show us anything other than that Islam is NOT peaceful? THINK, man!
“if losing the sence of respect is the meaning of freedome in your countries then i dont think that we want to learn from you the profesional way of being journalists”
We are not journalists - we are concerned citizens with no journalistic background at all. I am a language teacher, for example, and I have taught literally hundreds of Muslim students.
“i prefare as muslim to see the objective and postive way of expressing and building a healthy and warm rolations with the west not offensive ways”
This is an admirable attitude that brings great credit to you. I would hope you are typical, not a minority.
Please understand Emam, this next sentence is NOT me being satirical or trying to offend you. It is a serious question, which I would like you to seriously consider.
Can you see that EVERYTHING Islam has been doing these past few years is an insult to “us” and that NOT ONE action of Islam can possibly be seen as building warm relations?? NOT ONE.
In many “westerners” all Islam has produced is fear and mistrust; amongst others,like the bloggers here, it has produced a determination that that sort of behaviour, WHATEVER THE REASON, will never be tolerated or accepted in our societies??
Why should we open our hearts and doors to you? WHY? What do we owe you?
“and here i was very astonished to see that the western world still mixing between real Islam and terourism”
What option do we have when we see the hatred your people direct at us, over the slightest occurences and the most mundane issues? You will have to forgive us if “we” interpret everything that happens, like this, as an excuse, and indicative of a determination to dominate us, not to establish “warm relations”.
I hope you can see, Emam, that from our perspective, Islam has the responsibility.
Europe, America (and Australia) have never “reached out” to Islam for help. Our experience is that Islamic people arrive in our countries, in droves, wanting the benefits of life in our cultures and economies, and then proceed to demand we turn our countries into the same tyrannical, despotic serfdoms YOU escaped from.
The responsibility is YOURS, Islam. We do not need you. WE did not seek you out. You have nothing to offer, and only one commodity to sell. By your mass migration to our shores you prove that you need us.
We will not change. Can Islam????
“despite every thing im very sorry about what happened in some of the embassies in Syeria and Lebanon.
open your minds dont be biased”
I suggest there are a few Syrians, Lebanese, Iranians etc, who need to open their minds, before we would consider them civilised enough to open discussions with them.
Reasonable, mate?
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Islam DOES have the responsibility, but I'm not holding my breath for them to take it!
Comment by C-Mom— 2006/02/05 @ 01:21 PM — (Reply)
C-MOM, the almost unbelievable backlash presently unfolding around the Islamic world is our answer. Not that there was ever any doubt, hey?
Emam has not returned, mores the pity.
I don't know what response the "Muslim response" is receiving stateside, but here in Oz it is a blitzkrieg of taqiyya.
It is amazing how our airwaves are dominated by these Islamic spokesmen, consulted on all manner of things, their take on every issue sought as though they have the very word of God..... and they have never contested, let alone won, a single election in my country. Respresentation without mandate! Sound familiar?
It is all part of their program, wherever they are, coersion, bullying, standover tactics.
I am in a boiling rage....can't form the thoughts I feel, and I wonder - when we will be delivered of this accursed band of misfits and psychopaths!?
Comment by Gravelrash— 2006/02/05 @ 07:19 PM — (Reply)
Unfortunately, I beleive it will take another 9/11, and probably in Europe, before the sniviling, 'tolerant' left will be willing to do anything about it.
Comment by C-Mom— 2006/02/06 @ 04:39 AM — (Reply)
C-Mom, like so many others I have a startlingly good record of prediction, when it comes to Islam. It ain't hard, hey!
Sadly I know you are right. There is another 9/11 coming. You are right.... it is what it will take. Our "appeasers" are as bad as that ghastlt thing they wish to appease. To the lefties, the death of innocents is nothing, as long as the philosophy continues!
Once again - my deepest respect and gratitude to the American fighting men and women, who are defending me. Words will never convey what I feel for you and your willingness - and they won't ever convey the contempt I feel for those who vilify you.
Comment by Gravelrash— 2006/02/06 @ 10:36 AM — (Reply)
Yesterday I had posted some thoughts on Democracy Frontline-Now Im banned from the site....and you speak about Freedom of Speech?
Comment by A.A— 2006/02/07 @ 06:19 AM — (Reply)
A.A. I have no control over content there but I will tell you that anything racist will not be tolerated or perhaps you yelled fire in a crowded theater?
Comment by elmers brother— 2006/02/07 @ 05:58 PM — (Reply)
It seems to me that im the one being biased against by being banned...Also the so called "muslims" shown in the pictures on this page disgust me...these people are using my religion to justify their insanity and cruelty...there are millions of muslims in the world...these psychos do not represent us...and my religion has taught me to embrace and respect all people regardless of what religion,colour or race they come from...thats what i believe and all those i know believe...I tried to make some of you understand that you should not judge every one of us by the actions of terrorists...i understand that your anger and mistrust is overwhelming...normal, moderate muslims are trying to fight these fanatics within our own borders...my president hyas narrowly escaoped several assassination attempts by al qaeda recently...we live in fear too! I guess you wont understand that and empathy is an emotion you will not or cannot feel...A request for an open mind from you is unreasonable right now from me..my lament is usleless...it just hurts to read what you think of us and how many of you have misinterpreted the history and beliefs of Islam.
A.A
Comment by — 2006/02/07 @ 11:02 PM — (Reply)
AA, If you read DFL you will see that we do not hate Muslims. It is the behavior that is congenital or inherent with Islam. You seem reasonable and peace loving but as long as there are Muslims who interpret the Quran and use violence in it's name what other conclusion can we draw.
If you wish to carry on your conversation on DFL I can find out what happened and get back to you.
Comment by elmers brother— 2006/02/08 @ 02:31 AM — (Reply)
AA, want to know why you were banned? You are from Pakistan right? You may not have been involved but this is what is happening thanks to your brothers.
The error messages and all those problems with posting and commenting happened because we were attacked by a group of hackers acting together. They were from 3 diffrent countries: Turkey, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Around 50% of the hits we get on our site are malicious attempts to "decommision" us from the frey.
- firstly the sent as many semi-civilized and hate comments as the could hoping that other readers' comments would dissapear in all this junk. They were also attacking other "good" commenters and threatened them. I dealt with that by moderating and you guys thrushed the rest with your quick wits.
- secondly they are trying denial of service attacks - this may continue for a while
Comment by elmers brother— 2006/02/08 @ 12:11 PM — (Reply)
this quote is from an email sent to me by the site administrator
Comment by elmers brother— 2006/02/13 @ 01:42 PM — (Reply)
A.A - The facts are exactly as Elmers Bro states. The DFL site was under constant attack for many days, almost bringing it to a grinding halt. That is a major reason, by the way, for my delay in responding to you, A.A. Your felow Muslims have kept us busy!!!! I apologise for that delay, though.
So, A.A., perhaps you would like to take up the issues I raised with Emam? We would need a starting point, and that's as good as any, don't you think?
"I guess you wont understand that and empathy is an emotion you will not or cannot feel..."
I think my attempt at dialogue with Emam demonstrated a reasonable amount of empathy, which I also extend to you.
In fact, A.A, I am DESPERATE to find an erudite and educated Muslim to have just such a conversation with. Given the limitations of the written word, and the blog-shere, none-the-less we can talk. I would value the opportunity.
As I have said to several Muslim posters, at DFL, I will not engage in rhetoric, propaganda or insult, if you will offer the same.
Point by point, we have a lot of ground to cover, and it can only be mutually beneficial.
Just so you might understand that I do, in fact, have empathy, and a personal desire to understand, I can tell you that one of my family members, an adult, married niece of my wife, (they are both of Thai-Indian-Afghan heritage) is a Muslim. Her son is causing her a lot of grief. He studied in Saudi Arabia for 3 years, and his mother is very alarmed at the changed boy who returned to her.
I am sure Elmers Bro would allow us space to "have a chat" on his blog.
Comment by Gravelrash— 2006/02/13 @ 01:40 AM — (Reply)
no prob Grav
Comment by elmers brothe— 2006/02/13 @ 01:17 PM — (Reply)